Under the current law iwi can get special rights to the foreshore. Owning land and having a special legal right to do things there are not the same.

“I’d be opposed to them being sold for money,�

You can’t accept that maori have rights under the treaty in one breath and then impose arbitrarty restriction in the next breath. Not if they’re covered by The Treaty.

If they’ve a traditional right to take and carve whalebone from whales found dead on their iwi’s part of the shore, then it seems pretty obvious that they should still get a right to do so under the Treaty. Saying “oh, you can do that, but then we’ll impose these limits on the results” doesn’t cut it. Pre-european maori (and more to the point, maori when the Treaty was signed) had a fairly sophisticated trading set up: you can bet that they would have been trading whale-bone items in 1840.

It’s not like the fishing situation where the modern govt has needed to change the way the game works because in the 21st centures you need catch limits to protect fisheries, and in 1840 you didn’t. What you do to an already dead whale on the beach won’t change its ability to breed.

The whale is dead. It surely does not care what is done. And it’s not like the whale’s friends and relations are wandering around Te Papa’s gift shop saying “That’s uncle Finny’s tooth! How horrible!” and being offended or hurt by it.

if they want to send out wooden rowboats off their own coast to torture large mammals, i suppose that’s their right…but if they want to travel in massive ships 15,000 km to raid one of the world’s last wildernesses, they can just f-c-u-k off!

Oh dear. C’mon guys, you wouldn’t let the fundies stone gays just because Yahweh wants it. Harmful behaviour doesn’t become any less irrational when you’re obeying the whims of an imaginary deity from other cultures.

“I have to say that I think local hapu have some sort of traditional right to collect whale jaw bones and teeth for carving (though where that stands now that they don’t own their foreshore any more is another question), but they should accept that that should only happen once every effort to save the beached whale has failed.”

On the principles of justice that I advocate, that right should properly be extended to all New Zealanders who want to participate in this cultural tradition, and if the foreshore is held in commons as the property of us all, then I don’t see why that should be a problem? (Surely restricting it to one privileged group would be more problematic here?)

“I’d be opposed to them being sold for money,”

Why? It seems fairer to just impose a slight tax or a fee for taking the whale-bone from the commons (after all, it does deprive others of access, if the resource is in demand), perhaps earmarking the revenue for whale conservation efforts.

but i think i’m nearly done now..for now..on this…

and as i say (sniff) he started it by evoking the ozymoron of ‘humane slaughter’…(red flag to a bull..eh..?..)

but..fair do’s for now..i’ll try to shut up for a while…(i did say ‘try’..:)..ahem..and only on this subject..:)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

But sometimes it breaks out where I don’t expect it and overwhelms the question I’m asking, THATS ALL.

I was just trying to ALSO get a debate started on what this post is actually about.

Chill, phil, you’re being no fun to debate with, there are other people in the room.

and where..pray..are the models of this..?..on any farmed creature..?

and is that ‘humane slaughter’ myth not just part of the sanitising/de-sensitising language used by carnies to hush the realities of their actions..?..

(wot..? kneck-rubs..?..soft music…a soothing mix of opiates to send them on that long/short(?) journey..?..

what a crock..their slaughter is harsh and brutish..(how can it be anything else..?..)

you know what is a major conciousness-raising exercise for carnies is..?

take yourself..(and your loved ones)..on a tour of a slaughterhouse…

you’ll never look at those pink/red lumps of flesh wrapped in plastic in the supermarket again….

phil(whoar.co.nz)

(in my defence..all i can say is jgg started it..)

i guess you are insinuating at spamming on our part..and hinting we should close down/shut-up..?

spamming is a charge i would rigorously refute..and would contend the dialogue has been reasoned and enlightening (hopefully) for some…

and your subliminal message that we should just shut-up will be resolutely ignored..eh..?

methinks we have been too quiet for far too long…how long has it been now..?..a decade..?..

(and we still get bbqed limbs waved at us at green functions..?..)

time to get a bit noisier..methinks…

phil(whoar.co.nz)