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In return, I have commented here, and in the process attempted to
highlight the philosophical and procedural differences between us.
(I speak for myself. However, I have been “a Green” for thirty five years.)

ANDREW SAID: “I’m for retaining the status quo.”
AND “even though change has brought us to where we are now, we don’t necessarily have to have change any more.”

EREDWEN: Yes. It is clear that, as a conservative, you appear to dislike change. However change is an inevitable part of living in a global village, and an inevitable part of living in an increasingly multi-cultural country, which encourages immigration.

ANDREW: “if changes do occur, they should be those which evolve from amidst the culture, not those imposed externally.”
“i recognize that our new zealand culture is a hybrid which has taken in elements of various cultures as well as continuing to grow on its own”

EREDWEN: I agree! We are being bombarded with the “external� (from American Television for example!)
However, there is nothing “external” about the celebration of Matariki.
Without your noticing, Maori and Pacific Islanders have continued to recognise Matariki.

In my experience Maori tend to “do their own thing” unnoticed by many Pakeha. They are able to move between cultures easily, and an increasing number of young Pakeha are choosing to join them.

This doesn’t include all Maori. The efforts (last century) to separate young Maori from their language and their culture “for their own good” had an effect. However Maori culture survives (and thrives) in Aotearoa and is currently undergoing a Renaissance.

ANDREW: “why celebrate some random constellation “round aboutâ€? mid-winter when we know the exact date of the far more significant solstice.”

EREDWEN: “Random” to you … but very important and historically significant for navigation in the Southern Hemisphere (as was pointed out in previous discussion.)

ANDREW “IN SUMMARY”:

A: i’ve made the following factual points:
“-matariki is not part of the current new zealand culture”

e: I’d amend that to “has not been part of the dominant culture�

A: expanding on the above, “the vast majority of new zealanders (of all races) were unaware of matariki until over the last three years or so”

e: Are you sure? That is not my experience. The Pacific Islanders are “awareâ€?. Have you checked with the various Asians? Probably immigrants from the American mainland and Europe would be “unaware”.

A: “the fact that matariki used to be celebrated here generations before, doesn’t mean it is part of our culture now. (nor has been over the intervening time period).”
“-those trying to force change on us have the obligation to justify themselves, not me.”

e: and I have previously pointed out that these assertions are not accurate.

A: “you can’t deny any of these truths.”

e: They are your “truths�.

A: “and one final truth … “that the greens make themselves look trivial bothering themselves with this sort of issue.”

e: We don’t agree.

A: “i say all this to be helpful.”

e: Thanks for the sentiment and your effort.

I like Halloween, partly for its strangeness. I enjoyed pumpkin carving one year. It doesn’t seem big here in NZ.

it may be necessary for me to spell out some things about our discussion here. firstly, i’m not engaging in any cultural engineering - i’m for retaining the status quo. i’m not extolling british culture over maori culture - i recognize that our new zealand culture is a hybrid which has taken in elements of various cultures as well as continuing to grow on its own - and i like it more or less the way it is now. even though change has brought us to where we are now, we don’t necessarily have to have change any more. perpetual change for its own sake is not analagous to improvement. but if changes do occur, they should be those which evolve from amidst the culture, not those imposed externally. if the proposal were merely to legalize year-round fireworks sales, well then best wishes. at least we’d soon see which celebrations had a hold among the people. i’m not against having more celebrations in the year, including a mid-winter celebration. in fact i specifically mentioned solstice as a more appropriate option than matariki. one of the big drawbacks to matariki is that it would detract from solstice as a celebration. why celebrate some random constellation “round about” mid-winter when we know the exact date of the far more significant solstice.
i’ve made the following factual points:
-matariki is not part of the current new zealand culture
-expanding on the above, the vast majority of new zealanders (of all races) were unaware of matariki until over the last three years or so it came in for some heavy media attention. quibblers may point out that my precise wording was “nobody had heard of it”. still i’m sure i can be forgiven for using a well known figure of speech.
-a person’s right to practice their own culture excludes any obligation to assimilate any elements of any other culture, or to learn anything about them. (even though it might be nice to do so).
-the fact that matariki used to be celebrated here generations before, doesn’t mean it is part of our culture now. (nor has been over the intervening time period).
-those trying to force change on us have the obligation to justify themselves, not me.

you can’t deny any of these truths. it’s absurd to suggest the pro-matariki people would be making this cheer-leading effort for it if it was already part of our cultural calendar.

and one final truth that didn’t get enough attention - that the greens make themselves look trivial bothering themselves with this sort of issue. people expect parliamentary parties to be concerning themselves with momentous issues about the governing of the country - matters of the economy, global warming etc. this sort of thing is the province of the candidates for class-president or head girl. i seriously think peter dunne would have got more mileage from his idea to extend daylight-savings, inconsequential though that is.

most people are only animated by an issue like this when some busybody trys to force change down their throat - then they’ll resist.

i say all this to be helpful.

While I detest this Halloween rubbish I find it hard to refuse a polite young child who is accompanied by a parent, I object to handing out sweets to teenagers.

Can fellow frog bloggers confirm my suspicions that it was basically the Warehouse who forced this stupid festival upon the people of NZ, I was out of NZ for all of the 90’s and when I left the country I am sure we did not celebrate Halloween here.

-oh yes, i also forgot another important one - beer day!

I have enjoyed the opportunity to open up the discussion.

A few points. As I said above, I’d like a celebration at midwinter solstice. You seem to be agreeing with me on that. Your suggestion of Christmas cards at the beach with snow on them is interesting, but I think this goes unnecessarily far. Christmas in summer has been part of NZ culture for decades. Please note that I didn’t say anything about Easter. And I actually supported a spring celebration. Please don’t argue with me on the basis of things I have not said.

I think we can have Matariki, Christmas and Guy Fawkes, and a whole bunch of other special occasions. But I do not feel so strongly about it that I would want to spend much more time on this discussion.

I too really like the idea of a formal recognition of the celebration of Matariki for those same reasons!

alistair: I LIKE the idea of “Tupaia Day”

QUESTION: How do we proceed on this?

bj: “that’s cool” as they say.

big bruv: I believe that change is inevitable in a South Pacific country of mixed migration. (Great Britain ceased to be called “Home” a long time ago now, but I’m old enough to remember it from some elderly Great Aunts and Uncles, who were all NZ born themselves.) Your descendants would take for granted special days that reflect our place on the Planet, (and you’d have the advantage of being able to say “When I was young we … “)