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	<title>Comments on: Either politics or the lake turns green</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: bjchip</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27565</link>
		<dc:creator>bjchip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 22:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27565</guid>
		<description>TANSTAAFL!

http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&#38;task=view&#38;id=107&#38;Itemid=1

respectfully 
BJ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TANSTAAFL!</p>
<p><a href="http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=107&amp;Itemid=1" >http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id =107&amp;Itemid=1</a></p>
<p>respectfully<br />
BJ</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27558</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 14:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27558</guid>
		<description>Amory Lovins provides some good informaton on the superior economics of making ethanol from woody plants instead of corn.

http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E05-02_EndOilDepend.pdf

http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E04-21_FreeFromOil.pdf

The problem in the USA is that corn is King in Iowa. And Iowa is the first state in the presidential primaries. Winning Iowa is like getting pole position at the Indy 500. 

By the way, the Indy 500 is an alternative fuels race, the cars use methanol. At the rate of 1 litre per kilometre. Mind you, very few of the 500,000 spectators will arrive in cars because America's home of speed discovered long ago that public transport always wins the race to get that many people into one place at one time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amory Lovins provides some good informaton on the superior economics of making ethanol from woody plants instead of corn.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E05-02_EndOilDepend.pdf" >http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E05-02_EndOilDepend.pdf</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E04-21_FreeFromOil.pdf" >http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Energy/E04-21_FreeFromOil.pdf</a></p>
<p>The problem in the USA is that corn is King in Iowa. And Iowa is the first state in the presidential primaries. Winning Iowa is like getting pole position at the Indy 500. </p>
<p>By the way, the Indy 500 is an alternative fuels race, the cars use methanol. At the rate of 1 litre per kilometre. Mind you, very few of the 500,000 spectators will arrive in cars because America&#8217;s home of speed discovered long ago that public transport always wins the race to get that many people into one place at one time.</p>
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		<title>By: Russel</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27556</link>
		<dc:creator>Russel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 11:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27556</guid>
		<description>Biojoule claim the willow species they are planting are not invasive. 

And on the fuel leakage, apparently at other lakes they have banned two stroke fuel because it has both oil and petrol mixed together. When two stroke fuel leaks it is a problem because of the oil. So presumably enough fuel must leak to make it an issue.

And I'm sure that most boaties are conscientious. However, the info about boaties fouling certain areas with human refuse around lake Taupo did come from pretty reputable sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Biojoule claim the willow species they are planting are not invasive. </p>
<p>And on the fuel leakage, apparently at other lakes they have banned two stroke fuel because it has both oil and petrol mixed together. When two stroke fuel leaks it is a problem because of the oil. So presumably enough fuel must leak to make it an issue.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m sure that most boaties are conscientious. However, the info about boaties fouling certain areas with human refuse around lake Taupo did come from pretty reputable sources.</p>
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		<title>By: macro</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27554</link>
		<dc:creator>macro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 09:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27554</guid>
		<description>Hmmmmmmmm I'm not so sure about willows.. Just a few years ago we were all for pulling them out around wetlands. 

Surely the construction site would have been mulched by now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmmmmmm I&#8217;m not so sure about willows.. Just a few years ago we were all for pulling them out around wetlands. </p>
<p>Surely the construction site would have been mulched by now?</p>
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		<title>By: kazel</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27548</link>
		<dc:creator>kazel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 23:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27548</guid>
		<description>I love the idea of willows as bio-fuel, this is the first I have heard of it.  Takes monsanto right out of the equation.  It just does not make sense to use a food crop to make fuel. Good old Kiwi inventiveness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the idea of willows as bio-fuel, this is the first I have heard of it.  Takes monsanto right out of the equation.  It just does not make sense to use a food crop to make fuel. Good old Kiwi inventiveness.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerrit</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27545</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerrit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 20:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27545</guid>
		<description>"fuel leakage from power boats and jet skis and also unthinking boaties who apparently carelessly chuck rubbish overboard"

You forgot to mention those trout leaving their feaces to float in the lake!

Tilting at windmills when you say that fuel leakage is a concern.  
Any evidence of this or just green envy that boat owners can use the lake? 

It is that type of statement which the greens can do well without making.  You know just as I do, that fuel leakage is not an environemtal concern.

There is so little of it.

My understanding from visiting the lake on numerous occasions is that a non farming buffer zone is being established right round the lake and this is already making a difference to water quality.

As a group, recreational boaties would be one of the greenest around (as good as trampers) in regards taking their rubbish home.   No use getting to an isolated and idilic spot only the boaties can reach to find rubbish littering the place. 

So again an innuendo promoted as fact?   Oh, clever you mention the word "apparantly" to cover the fact you really dont know but it is a good point to raise for what? 

Kills the tone of the whole post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;fuel leakage from power boats and jet skis and also unthinking boaties who apparently carelessly chuck rubbish overboard&#8221;</p>
<p>You forgot to mention those trout leaving their feaces to float in the lake!</p>
<p>Tilting at windmills when you say that fuel leakage is a concern.<br />
Any evidence of this or just green envy that boat owners can use the lake? </p>
<p>It is that type of statement which the greens can do well without making.  You know just as I do, that fuel leakage is not an environemtal concern.</p>
<p>There is so little of it.</p>
<p>My understanding from visiting the lake on numerous occasions is that a non farming buffer zone is being established right round the lake and this is already making a difference to water quality.</p>
<p>As a group, recreational boaties would be one of the greenest around (as good as trampers) in regards taking their rubbish home.   No use getting to an isolated and idilic spot only the boaties can reach to find rubbish littering the place. </p>
<p>So again an innuendo promoted as fact?   Oh, clever you mention the word &#8220;apparantly&#8221; to cover the fact you really dont know but it is a good point to raise for what? </p>
<p>Kills the tone of the whole post.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27544</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 14:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27544</guid>
		<description>One of the reasons the reasons the race track was built at Pukekohe in the early 60s was so that fans could travel to the GP by train, the traffic jams at Ardmore had been attrocious.

The railways tended to view these special trains as a nuisance rather than as a marketing tool. Tranzrail and Toll have been a lot smarter and have gained quite few commuters as a result. Most petrolheads aren't stupid, they drive for pleasure not because they "have to". Since there's no pleasure being stuck in traffic they figure they're not losing anything if they commute by train, or bicycle or walking if its convenient for that matter. Generally petrolheads aren't the sort of people who will repeatedly sit in a car in traffic jam just because the alternative might mean getting cold or wet on the short walk to the station or bus stop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the reasons the reasons the race track was built at Pukekohe in the early 60s was so that fans could travel to the GP by train, the traffic jams at Ardmore had been attrocious.</p>
<p>The railways tended to view these special trains as a nuisance rather than as a marketing tool. Tranzrail and Toll have been a lot smarter and have gained quite few commuters as a result. Most petrolheads aren&#8217;t stupid, they drive for pleasure not because they &#8220;have to&#8221;. Since there&#8217;s no pleasure being stuck in traffic they figure they&#8217;re not losing anything if they commute by train, or bicycle or walking if its convenient for that matter. Generally petrolheads aren&#8217;t the sort of people who will repeatedly sit in a car in traffic jam just because the alternative might mean getting cold or wet on the short walk to the station or bus stop.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27543</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 12:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/25/either-politics-or-the-lake-goes-turns-green/#comment-27543</guid>
		<description>The Indy 500 has been using ethanol for almost half a century. The invisible flames have discouraged most other championships from following suit.

A deisel car won the Le Mans 24hr last year. In most situations deisel is more fuel efficient than hybrids, and when manufacturing emmisions and battery disposal are taken into account no genuine (or fully informed)environmentalist would ever drive a hybrid when a modern deisel is available.

The problem with the Aussie V8s is that they use dinosaur technology. This means they arent even a proving ground for environmental technologies or techniques.

At least formula one and LeMans sports cars can take the credit for accelerating the development and introduction of some environmental technologies onto production cars and trucks. For instance, turbo-chargers, electronic fuel injection, multi-valve systems, light-weight materials.

I am only aware of one instance where formula one actually solved an intractible environmental problem.  When Honda withdrew from formula one in the 1960s the engineers who had designed their 1.5 litre V12 were given just four years to design a fuel efficient, low-emmissions engine that cost no more to manufacture than a conventional engine. This was considered one of the holy grails of engine designers. The result was the CVCC engine used in the original Civic. The technology was licensed to Ford and Chrysler. But most importantly the engine was shown to  congress when they were wavering on the Clean Air Act, and overcame the powerfull lobbying from GM to get weaker emmissions standards phased in over a much longer period.

Incidently and ironically, one of the main reasons for selecting the Pukekohe site for a race track in the early 1960s was because it had its own siding for spectator trains, but the Grand Prix organisers were constantly battling with railways beaurecrats who considered it too much trouble to organise a special train each year instead of seeing it as a marketing opportunity. Fortunately Tranzrail and Toll seem to have been more enlightened and actually did use the V8 Supercars as a highly successfull marketing tool. Petrolheads are smarter than the average commuter, because driving is meant to be fun and being stuck in traffic isnt fun so you might as well commute on a train.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Indy 500 has been using ethanol for almost half a century. The invisible flames have discouraged most other championships from following suit.</p>
<p>A deisel car won the Le Mans 24hr last year. In most situations deisel is more fuel efficient than hybrids, and when manufacturing emmisions and battery disposal are taken into account no genuine (or fully informed)environmentalist would ever drive a hybrid when a modern deisel is available.</p>
<p>The problem with the Aussie V8s is that they use dinosaur technology. This means they arent even a proving ground for environmental technologies or techniques.</p>
<p>At least formula one and LeMans sports cars can take the credit for accelerating the development and introduction of some environmental technologies onto production cars and trucks. For instance, turbo-chargers, electronic fuel injection, multi-valve systems, light-weight materials.</p>
<p>I am only aware of one instance where formula one actually solved an intractible environmental problem.  When Honda withdrew from formula one in the 1960s the engineers who had designed their 1.5 litre V12 were given just four years to design a fuel efficient, low-emmissions engine that cost no more to manufacture than a conventional engine. This was considered one of the holy grails of engine designers. The result was the CVCC engine used in the original Civic. The technology was licensed to Ford and Chrysler. But most importantly the engine was shown to  congress when they were wavering on the Clean Air Act, and overcame the powerfull lobbying from GM to get weaker emmissions standards phased in over a much longer period.</p>
<p>Incidently and ironically, one of the main reasons for selecting the Pukekohe site for a race track in the early 1960s was because it had its own siding for spectator trains, but the Grand Prix organisers were constantly battling with railways beaurecrats who considered it too much trouble to organise a special train each year instead of seeing it as a marketing opportunity. Fortunately Tranzrail and Toll seem to have been more enlightened and actually did use the V8 Supercars as a highly successfull marketing tool. Petrolheads are smarter than the average commuter, because driving is meant to be fun and being stuck in traffic isnt fun so you might as well commute on a train.</p>
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