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	<title>Comments on: Big wind to the rescue</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33214</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33214</guid>
		<description>Samiuela, my comment "regular cycles of blackouts and savage price increases" is from the Electricity Departments annual reports from the '50s and '60s. Basically politicians refused to increase the wholesale price to match inflation. The drop in real power prices led to demand growing faster than predicted by the department with the result that they simple couldn't build power stations fast enough. When the inevitable but unpredictable dry year occured there would be blackouts and there would finally be a full inflation adjustment in one hit, frequently 25% or 50% increase in the wholesale price. 

The claim that the electrity reforms would reduce power prices was pure political spin. There is nothing in the free market theory to support that claim. What the theory does say is that energy costs will be reduced, and that is what has actually happened. Once people realised that power prices were not going to be reduced they started investing in energy efficiency like never before. That increase in demand has produced economies of scale so the price of energy saving lights has dropped by more than half. Prices for solar water and double glazing haven't really fallen for but they haven't increased by more than inflation either so they are relatively cheaper compared with the price of electricity. Most free market advocates don't really seem to know their subject very well since they constantly confuse the free market's effect on costs to the economy with price to the customer. And the free market's effects mainly occur in the medium or long term not in the short term. For instance, the price of electricity goes up, you invest in a slolar water heater, ten years later you have saved back the original cost and now the money you are not spending on energy can be spent in some other economic activity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Samiuela, my comment &#8220;regular cycles of blackouts and savage price increases&#8221; is from the Electricity Departments annual reports from the &#8217;50s and &#8217;60s. Basically politicians refused to increase the wholesale price to match inflation. The drop in real power prices led to demand growing faster than predicted by the department with the result that they simple couldn&#8217;t build power stations fast enough. When the inevitable but unpredictable dry year occured there would be blackouts and there would finally be a full inflation adjustment in one hit, frequently 25% or 50% increase in the wholesale price. </p>
<p>The claim that the electrity reforms would reduce power prices was pure political spin. There is nothing in the free market theory to support that claim. What the theory does say is that energy costs will be reduced, and that is what has actually happened. Once people realised that power prices were not going to be reduced they started investing in energy efficiency like never before. That increase in demand has produced economies of scale so the price of energy saving lights has dropped by more than half. Prices for solar water and double glazing haven&#8217;t really fallen for but they haven&#8217;t increased by more than inflation either so they are relatively cheaper compared with the price of electricity. Most free market advocates don&#8217;t really seem to know their subject very well since they constantly confuse the free market&#8217;s effect on costs to the economy with price to the customer. And the free market&#8217;s effects mainly occur in the medium or long term not in the short term. For instance, the price of electricity goes up, you invest in a slolar water heater, ten years later you have saved back the original cost and now the money you are not spending on energy can be spent in some other economic activity.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33213</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33213</guid>
		<description>alistair, The only electricity crisis I can actually recall from the 70s was winter 73. The oil price spike occured at the end of 73. This was the blackout when New Zealanders discovered ceiling insulation, in fact pink batts only came onto the market in 1969. I'm not sure if we had any blackouts after that. The last of big hydro schemes were completed in the late 70s and with the stagnant economy and then the speculative Clyde dam I think we had the rare situation of surplus generating capacity for a decade or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>alistair, The only electricity crisis I can actually recall from the 70s was winter 73. The oil price spike occured at the end of 73. This was the blackout when New Zealanders discovered ceiling insulation, in fact pink batts only came onto the market in 1969. I&#8217;m not sure if we had any blackouts after that. The last of big hydro schemes were completed in the late 70s and with the stagnant economy and then the speculative Clyde dam I think we had the rare situation of surplus generating capacity for a decade or two.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33212</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33212</guid>
		<description>On a blog about a new wind farm, I'm not interested in discussions about anti-smacking! I'm much more interested in why they are bundling a 100MW gas-fired generator with the wind farm, and the surprising lack of mention of that generator in the responses. However this could be part of a cunning plan - by bundling the gas-fired generator with the wind farm, they are attempting to convince us that it is just there to top up the generation when the wind isn't blowing. However this means that the other gas-fired generators will presumably run more often and longer.

I'd rather see the geothermal generating plant expanded and run more in a load following mode and use the existing gas-fired generation to handle the peaks.

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a blog about a new wind farm, I&#8217;m not interested in discussions about anti-smacking! I&#8217;m much more interested in why they are bundling a 100MW gas-fired generator with the wind farm, and the surprising lack of mention of that generator in the responses. However this could be part of a cunning plan - by bundling the gas-fired generator with the wind farm, they are attempting to convince us that it is just there to top up the generation when the wind isn&#8217;t blowing. However this means that the other gas-fired generators will presumably run more often and longer.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d rather see the geothermal generating plant expanded and run more in a load following mode and use the existing gas-fired generation to handle the peaks.</p>
<p>Trevor.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32834</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 07:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32834</guid>
		<description>Samiuela was suggesting regulating the price to keep it constant. This is actually counter-productive. 

What we need is a system which encourages demand-side management, by lowering the price of electricity when it is cheap to produce and raising it when it is expensive to produce (e.g. high demand and/or no wind). The key to DSM is to pass those signals to the electricity consumer in close to real time so they can choose when to use electricity and when to defer that use or choose to use other energy sources (such as gas, coal, or biomass). Ideally this would be automated. By giving the consumer (house-hold or commercial/inductrial) a financial incentive to use electricity when it is available and to install the necessary equipment, the peaks in demand are flattened and there is less wasted energy. This may be as simple as having a second thermostat on a hot water cylinder to boost the temperature higher than normal when the power is cheap plus an extra ripple-control channel on the power metering.

In general DSM leads to slight decreases in the efficiency of usage of electricity, but overall it leads to efficiency gains as more energy is used when available so it doesn't have to be stored in some other system or generated using less efficient plant.

It also reduces the dips in the spot price of electricity, thus allowing the electricity generators to receive payment for generation that may otherwise go to waste.

Unfortunately the electricity retailers are not encouraging / permitting this as they would probably lose some revenue as consumers use cheaper power. 

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Samiuela was suggesting regulating the price to keep it constant. This is actually counter-productive. </p>
<p>What we need is a system which encourages demand-side management, by lowering the price of electricity when it is cheap to produce and raising it when it is expensive to produce (e.g. high demand and/or no wind). The key to DSM is to pass those signals to the electricity consumer in close to real time so they can choose when to use electricity and when to defer that use or choose to use other energy sources (such as gas, coal, or biomass). Ideally this would be automated. By giving the consumer (house-hold or commercial/inductrial) a financial incentive to use electricity when it is available and to install the necessary equipment, the peaks in demand are flattened and there is less wasted energy. This may be as simple as having a second thermostat on a hot water cylinder to boost the temperature higher than normal when the power is cheap plus an extra ripple-control channel on the power metering.</p>
<p>In general DSM leads to slight decreases in the efficiency of usage of electricity, but overall it leads to efficiency gains as more energy is used when available so it doesn&#8217;t have to be stored in some other system or generated using less efficient plant.</p>
<p>It also reduces the dips in the spot price of electricity, thus allowing the electricity generators to receive payment for generation that may otherwise go to waste.</p>
<p>Unfortunately the electricity retailers are not encouraging / permitting this as they would probably lose some revenue as consumers use cheaper power. </p>
<p>Trevor.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32791</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32791</guid>
		<description>While it seems reasonable to assume that around half the prime wind generation sites are in the South Island, that doesn't mean that half the new wind generation will be in the South Island. What is more likely is that more of the prime sites in the North Island will be used, since this avoids the transmission line losses/constraints. However the Cook Strait link will still be a major constraint as other sources will be needed when the wind isn't blowing (enough) in the North Island. This is one reason that I would like to see more geothermal generation plant installed and operated more on a load-following mode rather than installing just enough plant to utilise the geothermal resource and operating it close to 100% capacity.

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While it seems reasonable to assume that around half the prime wind generation sites are in the South Island, that doesn&#8217;t mean that half the new wind generation will be in the South Island. What is more likely is that more of the prime sites in the North Island will be used, since this avoids the transmission line losses/constraints. However the Cook Strait link will still be a major constraint as other sources will be needed when the wind isn&#8217;t blowing (enough) in the North Island. This is one reason that I would like to see more geothermal generation plant installed and operated more on a load-following mode rather than installing just enough plant to utilise the geothermal resource and operating it close to 100% capacity.</p>
<p>Trevor.</p>
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		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32747</link>
		<dc:creator>alistair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32747</guid>
		<description>As I recall Kevyn, the blackouts in the 70s were associated with a spike in imported oil prices as well as low lake levels... am I wrong?

Pertinent to the discussion : this piece from the Financial Times, on the effect of privatization of gas and electricity in Europe on consumer prices.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/29869d28-7fe1-11dc-b075-0000779fd2ac.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I recall Kevyn, the blackouts in the 70s were associated with a spike in imported oil prices as well as low lake levels&#8230; am I wrong?</p>
<p>Pertinent to the discussion : this piece from the Financial Times, on the effect of privatization of gas and electricity in Europe on consumer prices.<br />
<a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/29869d28-7fe1-11dc-b075-0000779fd2ac.html" >http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/29869d28-7fe1-11dc-b075-0000779fd2ac.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32745</link>
		<dc:creator>alistair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32745</guid>
		<description>Thank you for those links Trevor... Excellent sources. So, the main emerging problem with new wind capacity appears to be the lag in transmitting it around the South Island, and, arguably, lack of capacity in the link to the N.I.  Both these elements seem to relate to inertia and lack of planning in the transmission sector (the S.I. hasn't seen any big new generation development in the last 20 years, so they've got rusty).

Since there is already excess generation capacity in the South and excess consumption in the North, for obvious and structural reasons, and assuming that at least half the prime wind sites are in the SI, it's logical that new wind developments will exacerbate the imbalance, i.e. increase the transport requirement. On a national scale, it's clear that there is enough hydro to balance a greatly expanded wind sector. What's more, a reinforced Cook Strait link will enable wind to take up an increasing baseload role (if the wind don't blow in Taranaki, it's quite likely it's still blowin' in Otago).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for those links Trevor&#8230; Excellent sources. So, the main emerging problem with new wind capacity appears to be the lag in transmitting it around the South Island, and, arguably, lack of capacity in the link to the N.I.  Both these elements seem to relate to inertia and lack of planning in the transmission sector (the S.I. hasn&#8217;t seen any big new generation development in the last 20 years, so they&#8217;ve got rusty).</p>
<p>Since there is already excess generation capacity in the South and excess consumption in the North, for obvious and structural reasons, and assuming that at least half the prime wind sites are in the SI, it&#8217;s logical that new wind developments will exacerbate the imbalance, i.e. increase the transport requirement. On a national scale, it&#8217;s clear that there is enough hydro to balance a greatly expanded wind sector. What&#8217;s more, a reinforced Cook Strait link will enable wind to take up an increasing baseload role (if the wind don&#8217;t blow in Taranaki, it&#8217;s quite likely it&#8217;s still blowin&#8217; in Otago).</p>
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		<title>By: samiuela</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32738</link>
		<dc:creator>samiuela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32738</guid>
		<description>Kevyn,

I can't remember blackouts being any more common in the 1970s or 1980s. I'm not saying there were less blackouts, I am just very skeptical of your claim of regular cycles of blackouts. Maybe you were living in a rural area, not a city? I also dispute your claim of savage price increases ... if the electricity market is such a success, why haven't we seen big price cuts associated with the so called "market efficiency"?

Free market proponents always make claims like yours. They would have us believe that pre-1984 was the dark ages, and that everything was so much worse than it is today. Of course lots of things have improved in the last 25 years, but to make the claim that this is solely because of free market "reforms" (and to neglect the influence of many other factors, such as improving technology) is very biased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevyn,</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t remember blackouts being any more common in the 1970s or 1980s. I&#8217;m not saying there were less blackouts, I am just very skeptical of your claim of regular cycles of blackouts. Maybe you were living in a rural area, not a city? I also dispute your claim of savage price increases &#8230; if the electricity market is such a success, why haven&#8217;t we seen big price cuts associated with the so called &#8220;market efficiency&#8221;?</p>
<p>Free market proponents always make claims like yours. They would have us believe that pre-1984 was the dark ages, and that everything was so much worse than it is today. Of course lots of things have improved in the last 25 years, but to make the claim that this is solely because of free market &#8220;reforms&#8221; (and to neglect the influence of many other factors, such as improving technology) is very biased.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32719</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32719</guid>
		<description>There are a number of articles on Wind generation and related issues in the latest Energy Watch:
http://www.energywatch.org.nz/issues/EW45_8-2007.pdf
particularly pages 29-33. 

On page 29, Contact Energy is quoted as warning that it would have to spill water from its Clyde and Roxburgh stations if additional wind generation [in the South Island] was put in place without increased transmission line capacity.

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a number of articles on Wind generation and related issues in the latest Energy Watch:<br />
<a href="http://www.energywatch.org.nz/issues/EW45_8-2007.pdf" >http://www.energywatch.org.nz/issues/EW45_8-2007.pdf</a><br />
particularly pages 29-33. </p>
<p>On page 29, Contact Energy is quoted as warning that it would have to spill water from its Clyde and Roxburgh stations if additional wind generation [in the South Island] was put in place without increased transmission line capacity.</p>
<p>Trevor.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32717</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32717</guid>
		<description>Link to MED Wind Integration final report
http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/9548/final.pdf or
http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/MultipageDocumentTOC____4317.aspx

as requested by Alistair

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Link to MED Wind Integration final report<br />
<a href="http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/9548/final.pdf" >http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/9548/final.pdf</a> or<br />
<a href="http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/MultipageDocumentTOC____4317.aspx" >http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/MultipageDocumentTOC____4317.aspx</a></p>
<p>as requested by Alistair</p>
<p>Trevor.</p>
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