Comments on: Are the Wheels Falling Off the ETS? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:12:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: panda http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43389 panda Thu, 15 May 2008 23:08:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43389 "Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry? depends on what type of pollution u are talking about sh#T or the so called Carbon emissions if u mean effluent, for sure the polluter should pay, but if u mean the carbon nonsense no other country in the world is including agriculture in their ETS so why the hell should we!!! it makes no sense if fact every other country knows its number one mission is to feed its people (except Burma and Zim)and so dont attempt to punish their farmers for doing so" no answer to my questions ? “Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry?

depends on what type of pollution u are talking about

sh#T or the so called Carbon emissions

if u mean effluent, for sure the polluter should pay, but if u mean the carbon nonsense no other country in the world is including agriculture in their ETS so why the hell should we!!!

it makes no sense

if fact every other country knows its number one mission is to feed its people (except Burma and Zim)and so dont attempt to punish their farmers for doing so”

no answer to my questions ?

]]> By: Bryce http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43388 Bryce Thu, 15 May 2008 23:01:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43388 Hi Ari (and Jeanette) If you look back at Green Party statements at the time of the ETS announcement you'll find enthusiasm for the scheme. Yes, the Greens had some complaints - mostly about how this market mechanism didn't go *far enough*. But the Greens have always been generally supportive of market models like ETS. The statement from the Greens that I saw included some reservations, but also said things like * The ETS "is well designed" * “The Greens welcome the underlying design of the scheme, which takes a number of features from our climate change policy we released in March.� So it seems that the Greens are now backing away from this support and rewriting history. For a very different view and critique of the scheme, see: http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2007/10/the-green-labou.html Bryce Hi Ari (and Jeanette)

If you look back at Green Party statements at the time of the ETS announcement you’ll find enthusiasm for the scheme. Yes, the Greens had some complaints - mostly about how this market mechanism didn’t go *far enough*. But the Greens have always been generally supportive of market models like ETS. The statement from the Greens that I saw included some reservations, but also said things like

* The ETS “is well designed”

* “The Greens welcome the underlying design of the scheme, which takes a number of features from our climate change policy we released in March.�

So it seems that the Greens are now backing away from this support and rewriting history.

For a very different view and critique of the scheme, see:
http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2007/10/the-green-labou.html

Bryce

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43336 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 03:23:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43336 People can choose to change their behaviour based on cost BB, and they generally do. One could give oneself an even bigger tax cut by buying goods/services that have taken measures efficiency or emissions reduction measures, which will presumably be competitive with low efficiency/high emitters, because their pollution now has a cost. People can choose to change their behaviour based on cost BB, and they generally do. One could give oneself an even bigger tax cut by buying goods/services that have taken measures efficiency or emissions reduction measures, which will presumably be competitive with low efficiency/high emitters, because their pollution now has a cost.

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43328 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 02:47:57 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43328 'choice', exactly. ‘choice’, exactly.

]]> By: dbuckley http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43325 dbuckley Thu, 15 May 2008 02:43:57 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43325 The downside of ETS is that it is, like GST, (by and large) neutral on business, instead just passing an extra set of costs onto the consumer. Now if the consumer could get those costs back in an equitable and useful manner, making it cost neutral for the consumer, then the scheme is not doomed to failure, as ever providing that the consumer has some ability to exercise a meaningful and reasonable choice of behaviours. The downside of ETS is that it is, like GST, (by and large) neutral on business, instead just passing an extra set of costs onto the consumer. Now if the consumer could get those costs back in an equitable and useful manner, making it cost neutral for the consumer, then the scheme is not doomed to failure, as ever providing that the consumer has some ability to exercise a meaningful and reasonable choice of behaviours.

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43321 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 02:28:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43321 http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm or just search the title. BB, what 'heap of extra taxes'? What if the money from the ETS was recycled into energy efficiency and energy projects? Or even income tax reductions? What if income tax were lowered (as the greens seem to advocate, at least at the moment) at the same time? I'm just saying those are options, not sure Labour is too keen on any of them, hard to tell. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm or just search the title.

BB, what ‘heap of extra taxes’? What if the money from the ETS was recycled into energy efficiency and energy projects? Or even income tax reductions? What if income tax were lowered (as the greens seem to advocate, at least at the moment) at the same time? I’m just saying those are options, not sure Labour is too keen on any of them, hard to tell.

]]> By: uk_kiwi http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43315 uk_kiwi Thu, 15 May 2008 02:15:08 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43315 Stephen- that link is a 404 Stephen- that link is a 404

]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43312 big bro Thu, 15 May 2008 02:00:49 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43312 Stephen So a whole heap of extra taxes is not going to harm the economy? While you are there, can you tell me how money is going to stop climate change? Stephen

So a whole heap of extra taxes is not going to harm the economy?

While you are there, can you tell me how money is going to stop climate change?

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43311 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 01:58:27 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43311 "Greens secure warmer, drier State homes" http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm. Good stuff! “Greens secure warmer, drier State homes” http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm. Good stuff!

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43310 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 01:57:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43310 BB, I still have no idea where you get your figures on "economic suicide" . BB, I still have no idea where you get your figures on “economic suicide” .

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