Comments on: The whole gamut - food subsidies, genetic engineering, oil prices and wind turbines http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/ hopping along the corridors of power Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:49:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-44746 Trevor29 Fri, 30 May 2008 07:35:28 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-44746 An alternative to micro wind turbines just took another step closer to production: http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/press/seagen-installation-completed/ This is a 1.2MW tidal flow system in Ireland. Trevor. An alternative to micro wind turbines just took another step closer to production:
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/press/seagen-installation-comp leted/
This is a 1.2MW tidal flow system in Ireland.

Trevor.

]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43813 Trevor29 Wed, 21 May 2008 10:12:17 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43813 Only 1 kilometer up? :) Some engineers are looking a lot higher than that: http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm Still it is good to see signs of progress. Trevor. Only 1 kilometer up? :) Some engineers are looking a lot higher than that:
http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

Still it is good to see signs of progress.

Trevor.

]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43812 Trevor29 Wed, 21 May 2008 09:45:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43812 Interesting idea Kevyn, but I doubt that micro wind turbines will be economical once the costs of control equipment, grid connection, maintenance and documentation are included. There are economies of scale that apply when you compare 1 x MW wind turbine versus 15000 x 200 Watt micro wind turbines. Trevor. Interesting idea Kevyn, but I doubt that micro wind turbines will be economical once the costs of control equipment, grid connection, maintenance and documentation are included. There are economies of scale that apply when you compare 1 x MW wind turbine versus 15000 x 200 Watt micro wind turbines.

Trevor.

]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43743 andrew Tue, 20 May 2008 21:54:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43743 <blockquote>A Kiwi who wants to use giant kites soaring a kilometre into the sky to harness cheap and green wind power has hauled in a US$10 million (NZ$13 million) investment from Internet giant Google.</blockquote> http://www.stuff.co.nz/4553829a11.html

A Kiwi who wants to use giant kites soaring a kilometre into the sky to harness cheap and green wind power has hauled in a US$10 million (NZ$13 million) investment from Internet giant Google.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4553829a11.html

]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43730 Kevyn Tue, 20 May 2008 15:00:36 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43730 One thing you may be overlooking is that micro wind turbines can take advantage of microclimates to smooth out the fluctuations in wind strength by having a large number of small windfarmlets instead of a small number of large wind farms. The trick to making that approach work seamlessly is to combine modern remote data telemetry systems and digital switching technology with appropriate processing software, perhaps modelled on traction control or engine management software. Add to that the intriguing possibility of using this type of wind turbine in the CBD's concrete canyons or possibly even as a hydro turbine in rivers or existing hydro tailraces or even suspended from the New Brighton Pier. http://www.magenn.com/media/video/player.html?v=JDJhhGJwSuA&hl=en One thing you may be overlooking is that micro wind turbines can take advantage of microclimates to smooth out the fluctuations in wind strength by having a large number of small windfarmlets instead of a small number of large wind farms. The trick to making that approach work seamlessly is to combine modern remote data telemetry systems and digital switching technology with appropriate processing software, perhaps modelled on traction control or engine management software.

Add to that the intriguing possibility of using this type of wind turbine in the CBD’s concrete canyons or possibly even as a hydro turbine in rivers or existing hydro tailraces or even suspended from the New Brighton Pier.
http://www.magenn.com/media/video/player.html?v=JDJhhGJwSuA&hl=en

]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43721 Trevor29 Tue, 20 May 2008 11:34:40 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43721 Wind power might be one of the two flavours of the month (geothermal being the other) but it does have problems - apart from that of being a good bird blender :) The major problem is fast, unpredictable changes in output, possibly as much as going from zero to full rated output in 15 minutes. Wave power like wind is intermittant and unpredictable long term, but varies much more slowly - over days - and can be predicted to some extend using remote bouys. This makes it much easier to integrate with other forms of power generation, particularly thermal generation. Tidal flow generation also varies slowly, but very predictably, and is therefore also easier to integrate than wind (or solar). Unfortunately the Labour government is only offering a token contribution to marine power generation research, despite New Zealand having world class wave resources and world class tidal flow resources. Trevor. Wind power might be one of the two flavours of the month (geothermal being the other) but it does have problems - apart from that of being a good bird blender :) The major problem is fast, unpredictable changes in output, possibly as much as going from zero to full rated output in 15 minutes.

Wave power like wind is intermittant and unpredictable long term, but varies much more slowly - over days - and can be predicted to some extend using remote bouys. This makes it much easier to integrate with other forms of power generation, particularly thermal generation.

Tidal flow generation also varies slowly, but very predictably, and is therefore also easier to integrate than wind (or solar).

Unfortunately the Labour government is only offering a token contribution to marine power generation research, despite New Zealand having world class wave resources and world class tidal flow resources.

Trevor.

]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43718 Trevor29 Tue, 20 May 2008 11:07:53 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43718 Oops - missed a multiplier. Average demand is around 40,000 GWhrs per annum, so we need about 2,400 GWHrs of extra generation per annum. One option I didn't mention was switching to renewable fuels in our thermal power stations, i.e. biomass. This might help with dry year demand. Trevor. Oops - missed a multiplier. Average demand is around 40,000 GWhrs per annum, so we need about 2,400 GWHrs of extra generation per annum.

One option I didn’t mention was switching to renewable fuels in our thermal power stations, i.e. biomass. This might help with dry year demand.

Trevor.

]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43635 Trevor29 Mon, 19 May 2008 20:45:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43635 Yes, tidal is not only predictable, but it is also relatively consistent. We know that the output of a tidal station will peak every 6 1/4 hours. Some weeks it will generate more than others, but it will always generate a reasonable amount of power each day. This means we can add small storage systems to smooth over those troughs every 6 1/4 hours and larger systems for the daily variation in demand, knowing that they will be recharged. We still need larger storage systems for the monthly variations and annual demand variations. Wind, wave and solar don't have the same guarantees and we can have a week of low output from all of them - probably at the same time! Trevor Yes, tidal is not only predictable, but it is also relatively consistent. We know that the output of a tidal station will peak every 6 1/4 hours. Some weeks it will generate more than others, but it will always generate a reasonable amount of power each day. This means we can add small storage systems to smooth over those troughs every 6 1/4 hours and larger systems for the daily variation in demand, knowing that they will be recharged. We still need larger storage systems for the monthly variations and annual demand variations. Wind, wave and solar don’t have the same guarantees and we can have a week of low output from all of them - probably at the same time!

Trevor

]]> By: turnip28 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43624 turnip28 Mon, 19 May 2008 18:53:13 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43624 One thing to add to that good post Trevor is that Tidal isn't really an unknown power generation system like wind. We can calculate the amount of power a tidal generator will generate on any given day. Yes the Tidal power system doesn't generate the same amount of power each day but you can know how much power it will generate on the first monday of next month and plan for that. Wind, wave solar don't offer that. One thing to add to that good post Trevor is that Tidal isn’t really an unknown power generation system like wind. We can calculate the amount of power a tidal generator will generate on any given day. Yes the Tidal power system doesn’t generate the same amount of power each day but you can know how much power it will generate on the first monday of next month and plan for that. Wind, wave solar don’t offer that.

]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43617 Trevor29 Mon, 19 May 2008 11:59:56 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/16/the-whole-gamut-food-subsidies-genetic-engineering-oil-prices-and-wind-turbines/#comment-43617 By my recconning, New Zealand needs to increase its renewable power generation by around 6% per annum if we are to move to >90% renewables by 2025 or so. This comes from around 1-2% per annum growth, plus around 30% of non-renewable power to replace over 15 years or so, plus about 1% per annum for various forms of electric vehicle (trains, buses, PHEV or all electric cars, etc) plus a bit more for substitution of fossil fuels for home, commercial and industrial use. There are two parts to this problem. One is meeting peak demand even if intermittand sources of power (wind, solar, tidal, wave) aren't available. Peak demand is around 7200MW so we need to add about 400MW per annum of firm generation, such as hydro, geothermal or various forms of energy storage systems. The other part of the problem is average power consumption, which is around 40GWHrs per annum. We need to add around 2.4GWHrs per annum of renewable generation, or about 300MW of average generation. If we use wind with a capacity factor of 40%, we need to add 750MW of new generation to meet the 300MW average requirement. New hydro or geothermal generation can meet both parts of this problem. However there are limited opportunities for actual new generation for either. What we can do is to increase the peak outputs of some of our hydro or geothermal stations which probably won't help the average power gneration much but which gives us more firm (despatchable) generation for when the wind isn't blowing. Storage systems can only meet the first and have a small negative impact on the second - there are additional losses - but they can use surplus intermittant generation. Intermittant generation can only meet the second part, but as we add intermittant generation, we run into increasing periods of surplus generation when demand is low. An alternative to adding storage systems is to increase the demand during such periods and use electricity when the price is really low for applications which are uneconomic at other times when the electricity price is higher. What concerns me is that we simply don't appear to be building anything like the required amount of new renewable generation of any sort. That and Genesis expecting to find gas for their proposed Rodney power station at an affordable price. Trevor. By my recconning, New Zealand needs to increase its renewable power generation by around 6% per annum if we are to move to >90% renewables by 2025 or so. This comes from around 1-2% per annum growth, plus around 30% of non-renewable power to replace over 15 years or so, plus about 1% per annum for various forms of electric vehicle (trains, buses, PHEV or all electric cars, etc) plus a bit more for substitution of fossil fuels for home, commercial and industrial use.

There are two parts to this problem. One is meeting peak demand even if intermittand sources of power (wind, solar, tidal, wave) aren’t available. Peak demand is around 7200MW so we need to add about 400MW per annum of firm generation, such as hydro, geothermal or various forms of energy storage systems.

The other part of the problem is average power consumption, which is around 40GWHrs per annum. We need to add around 2.4GWHrs per annum of renewable generation, or about 300MW of average generation. If we use wind with a capacity factor of 40%, we need to add 750MW of new generation to meet the 300MW average requirement.

New hydro or geothermal generation can meet both parts of this problem. However there are limited opportunities for actual new generation for either. What we can do is to increase the peak outputs of some of our hydro or geothermal stations which probably won’t help the average power gneration much but which gives us more firm (despatchable) generation for when the wind isn’t blowing.

Storage systems can only meet the first and have a small negative impact on the second - there are additional losses - but they can use surplus intermittant generation. Intermittant generation can only meet the second part, but as we add intermittant generation, we run into increasing periods of surplus generation when demand is low. An alternative to adding storage systems is to increase the demand during such periods and use electricity when the price is really low for applications which are uneconomic at other times when the electricity price is higher.

What concerns me is that we simply don’t appear to be building anything like the required amount of new renewable generation of any sort. That and Genesis expecting to find gas for their proposed Rodney power station at an affordable price.

Trevor.

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