You can’t always get what you want
One of the funnier moments in the Hollow Men was the bit where Don Brash decides to go all populist, Maori bashing and tough on crime etc, and then all his big business supporters start to get antsy, because although they want him elected they don’t want some middle-of-the-road National Party; they want Roger Douglas 2 – The Revenge.
They didn’t want to spend more on criminals or waste time pandering to middle New Zealand they just wanted stonking big tax cuts, and fast.
When Brash lost and then departed and Key stepped up to take his place the I assume those big money backers had to take a deep breathe and accept you can’t always get what you want. But, at least they were still going to get the tax cuts. And then, with but one month to go they get this:
National has reduced its planned tax cuts for high income earners so it can keep its pledge to give the average earner a cut of $50 a week.
Gaahh! You’ve got to feel sorry for them. I guess we’ll find out later today but, if high income earners are going to get less, and everyone still averages $50, that means low income workers are going to get more. That sounds Green or something?
So, today’s song goes out to those shadowy big money backers of the Key and the National Party.
October 8th, 2008 at 9:27 am
I thought that I read it as workers on the average wage would get around $50, rather than the average cut being $50. I think the first case would mean that people on less than the average wage might get nothing at all… at least I don’t think there is any info there….
October 8th, 2008 at 9:41 am
OK, so telling the truth about Maori is “bashing” is it?
October 8th, 2008 at 9:57 am
And The Greens have yet to outline which expensive proposals they intend to cut.
Or is this yet another example of Greens insisting everyone, but themselves, change their way of thinking?
October 8th, 2008 at 10:08 am
John Key’s comment on TV3 last night - “obviously we’d like to have a bigger package..”
priceless!
October 8th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Let’s start with National’s tax cuts (however much they end up being), and Labour’s extravagant and misguided road building proposals.
Speaking of which, I see Labour has engaged in the worst form of pork barrel politics in proposing to steal Auckland’s regional petrol tax to fund the Whangaparoa Penlink roading plan. I’ve blogged about that issue over at g.blog.
October 8th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Toad
You are against the tax cuts?
October 8th, 2008 at 10:50 am
In the form I understand National are proposing, yes.
I support a reduction in personal income tax and company tax by providing for a tax-free income threshold, but this should be offset by additional taxes on property speculation and waste and pollution, rather than by sacking public servants, which is what I expect will happen under National.
October 8th, 2008 at 10:54 am
So if tax cuts are a good thing and a way to stimulate the economy, how come the reaction to a bad economic situation is to cut the cuts and say “that’s the sensible thing to do”?
Is Key saying tax cuts aren’t sensible?
October 8th, 2008 at 10:58 am
I’m not convinced tax cuts are a stimulus to the economy; tax cuts dont add any more money to the economy; they just change how the same money is spent.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:05 am
“OK, so telling the truth about Maori is “bashing” is it?”
don’t start bringing out the T word ‘big’ bro. your truth seems quite different than a lot of other people’s. don brash’s ‘truth’ about maori was calculated to win the votes of people who have little understanding of maori, their culture and their challenges.
he certainly wasn’t doing maori any favours
October 8th, 2008 at 11:07 am
@toad
right on! tax the things we want to discourage not want we want to encourage. sounds like common sense!
October 8th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Toad
“In the form I understand National are proposing, yes.”
The truth at last, you would be against anything that the Nat’s proposed.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:22 am
nommo
Who said anything about favours, and why should one group of Kiwi’s receive special favours over any other group?
Don Brash told the truth, you (and the left in general) seem to have a real problem with that.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:38 am
I think that the cuts are supposed to stimulate economic activity, through investment and resultant productivity gains - that sort of thing. Not really the case if you spend the money on another social development policy advisor. Not sure how the ’stimulation’ works if the money is just spent on consumer items, perhaps it still applies?
October 8th, 2008 at 11:45 am
“why should one group of Kiwi’s receive special favours over any other group?”
Damn straight. I’m sick and tired of seeing Pakeha landowners sitting on land we all know is stolen, yet the police do nothing. Not to mention the apathetic majority who demand education and government information in English because they are too bloody lazy to learn Te Reo. Likewise, the immigrants who left their own countries because conditions there were shocking, then demanded a judicial system based on their own culture should have been told to fit in or ship out on the leaky boats they came in on.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:56 am
>>they are too bloody lazy to learn Te Reo
What about Asia languages? The languages of the Pacific? Celtic?
>>I’m sick and tired of seeing Pakeha landowners sitting on land we all know is stolen
Too right. Give it back to the tribe that stole it off the tribe that ate the tribe they stole it off in the first place.
>>fit in or ship out on the leaky boats they came in on
Perhaps they just knew how to organise things a lot better. Beats wacking each other with sticks, anyway.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:56 am
nommopilot,
Yeah, cause that has worked so well in Uhmerica and Britian…
Lets just leave the market up to malinformed and self interested politicians to manipulate at will!
October 8th, 2008 at 11:56 am
“Don Brash told the truth”
I’m telling you the truth now: don brash’s truth only applies to those who share his world view - for the most part well-off white upper middle-class types.
the truth for a lot of maori is that their people have been short-changed on the deal their ancestors made with the immigrant colonists, which just so happens to be the basis on which our nation exists.
there are so many more truths out there…
October 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
“Yeah, cause that has worked so well in Uhmerica and Britian”
um, no. their systems are nothing like what I’m talking about. they don’t tax pollution and capital gains from speculation. they don’t enable their people to earn enough to support their basic needs tax-free.
america is exactly an example of why a low-tax unregulated economy is a disaster waiting to happen.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
The truth is a few Maori are stuck in a mythical past because it is easier , and more profitable, than confronting themselves, their present and their future.
We’re all in the same boat now.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
BP,
Careful, dont talk about cannabalism! they will come for you!
October 8th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
“Too right. Give it back to the tribe that stole it off the tribe that ate the tribe they stole it off in the first place. ”
yes much more civilised to make a legal agreement and then reneg on it.
“Perhaps they just knew how to organise things a lot better. Beats wacking each other with sticks, anyway.”
yes guns did so much for maori. much better organised killing. maori society had more dimensions than warfare and your throwaway argument does them the disservice of implying they were savages when in fact their culture was highly civilised and structured. your ‘truth’ is beginning to show.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
The truth is a few Pakeha are stuck in a mythical past because it is easier, and more profitable, than confronting themselves, their present and their future.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
“We’re all in the same boat now.”
yes but some people are claiming to own the boat when in fact they promised to share it…
October 8th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
nommopilot,
oh!, so uhmerica is unregulated now? and oviously they dont manipulate how compeditive various industries are merly because their politicians want to encourage them so they can get more donations to their campeigns! i mean, its not like they have massive tariffs or subsidies, huh?
October 8th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
“Perhaps they just knew how to organise things a lot better. Beats wacking each other with sticks, anyway.”
Yeah, the old British class system and Empire were classics of organisation - let’s organise everything to benefit a tiny minority and shoot or deport anybody who complains. Anyway, cannon and rifles beat people armed with sticks, so who needs organisation?
October 8th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
if you want to talk about that, then the problem is that their taxes encourage the wrong things. subsidies for unsustainable uncompetitive industries are not the same as taxing undesirable polluting of shared natural resources like air and water.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
sam and nommopilot,
the ‘truth’ is that you and several lefties here are stuck in a romantic dream totally abstract from the world in which we live! if you cant muster enough power to protect your claim under an agreement then you are totally screwed. Sure, the land was unjustly taken, but can they muster enough force to take it back? might is right.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
>>yes much more civilised to make a legal agreement
Strange how “white mans law” is invoked when deemed necessary….
>>their culture was highly civilised and structured
It’s all relative. But it was also a state, if one can call it that, of tribal warfare.
>>The truth is a few Pakeha are stuck in a mythical past
Not really. No need to play dumb.
>>when in fact they promised to share it…
Those people are all long dead.
The government is redressing past grievences, for the sake of peace and goodwill, but the clock is never going back. There is no choice but to accept that fact, because we do not have a time machine.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
nommopilot,
dont get me wrong here, i support taxing polution and such, but not because its ‘bad’ (a subjective thing), rather because it degrades the common wealth of society and i support taxing it only at the level it costs to recuperate the damages.
The reason uhmerica is screwed is because the politicians control the subsidies, tariffs and taxes and the politicians are influenced by their ownself interest, the politicians are allowed to define the good and the bad and as such they introduce the inefficency into the system. What you have stated you support is no different.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Sam,
You, as a self confessed anarchist, would understand the concept of mght is right?
Is it not the anarchist believe that the communist revolution can only happened through armed struggle?
October 8th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
“might is right”
why bother arguing with words on the internetz then? why don’t we just meet up and fight it out?
sappy ent, you argue that good and bad are subjective but then on the other use ‘truth’ as though that is any less subjective.
our dream may be abstract now are you saying people should give up on dreaming of a world with more fairness and justice because might makes right and therefore we are doomed to live by the law of the jungle forever? the greens should stop trying to accomplish their goals because of the way things are now?
October 8th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
“The reason uhmerica is screwed is because the politicians control the subsidies, tariffs and taxes and the politicians are influenced by their ownself interest, the politicians are allowed to define the good and the bad”
I don’t know the best way to protect the natural resources we share but I know the ‘free’ market won’t do it. and I think someone has to because our biodiversity is dissappearing, our water and air are being dirtied and our poor are suffering. tax cuts will fix none of these problems…
October 8th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Quite a skirmish developing here in the normally tranquil waters of the frogpond.
Wasn’t it Arthur and his Round Table knights who dispatched the concept that “Might is Right’ to the outer reaches of the known world? That was some time ago, but it seems there are still some Antediluvian lunkheads desperately waving the ‘mighty’ flag here in our far flung isles.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
“Is it not the anarchist believe that the communist revolution can only happened through armed struggle?”
No it isn’t - some anarchists are pacifists, some believe the state won’t give up withouty a fight, but I’ve never met a statist that didn’t support the government’s right to use violence.
“Sure, the land was unjustly taken, but can they muster enough force to take it back? might is right.”
Should I mention that to Black Power? “Hey guys, the problem is you aren’t big enough and violent enough - you need to work on this”
“It’s all relative. But it was also a state, if one can call it that, of tribal warfare. ”
Which we improved on by recruiting Maori to fight our frequent wars overseas.
“>>The truth is a few Pakeha are stuck in a mythical past
Not really. No need to play dumb. ”
Come on - lots of Pakeha, of all political persuasions, have mythologised the past - you’ve only got to use words like “invasion”, “conquest” and “colonial” and they start squirming and go into denial mode. When I call myself a colonist people look uncomfortable or giggle as if I’d said something funny or shocking.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
>>I call myself a colonist people look uncomfortable or giggle as if I’d said something funny
I suspect they are laughing at you, rather than with you….
October 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Sam
If we leave aside your irrational and racist outbursts for a moment would it be right if I were to assume that you favour maori as the official (and first) language of New Zealand and more apartheid laws in favour of maori.
The next question I have is this, at what stage do you stop making excuses for the endless line of maori failure?
October 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Nommopilot,
Indeed, truth is a very subjective thing, thus why I enclosed it.
Might is right, both literaly and figurativly, for ovious reasons I cannot definitivly say that is a axal truth but it is very much, based on the assumption that what we experience is reality, the truth of this world and I have argued this point on this blog on multiple occasions.
Might takes more forms than just a brawl on the streets; diplomats hold more might than a thai kick boxer through the institutions of state and the agreements between various parties. The point of arguing on blogs is, among many somewhat more admirable goals, to convince others of ones position and in doing so aquire more might for that posistion.
Fairness and Justice? Those are quite possibly the two most abstract and subjective concepts western culture, or indeed any culture, has ever created. Though one can say fairly confidently that justice is dictated by the predominant bearer of might, if one views it as different but does not have the might to change it then their view is illigetimate. Fairness is another concept much like justice except that it differs in that what is fair is not dictated by force but by an individual opinion and has little effect on the outside world; what you view as fair is probbally a lot different to what BB views as fair.
I am not saying that the Greens should not promote their view of justice and fairness, on the contrary I am saying that they should as I believe it would benefit society and they have the potential to, through the intitutions of state, obtain the might neccacary to impliment their concepts, as they have been doing for some time now.
I refer to a dream in the sence of a non-sensical manifestation of the random firings of the brain during REM sleep, not the ‘dream’ such as that of M.L.K.; in other words, your delusion.
By no means do I support the free-market, I may have some far right concepts but I have far more from the far left and regulation is something somewhat dear to me :P. But unlike you I A) understand the market (insofar as one can understand the irrational decisions of idiots) and B) do not have an unwaivering faith in politicians nor in the ability of the idiotic masses to keep them in cheek.
I support taxes, I support regulation, and I support eco-taxes; I do not however support the idiotic system which is government by the mob.
Nommopilot, stop making strawmen built on the assumption that I am a ideolouge; it wont get you anywhere. Just because I argue a point it does not mean I support everthing that normally goes with it.
Greenfly,
Oviously you have never read the legend to which you make reference. Atleast not critically.
Sam,
Exactly, it was an invasion and some people, such as yourself, need to get used to the idea.
If Black Power could muster the power to take the country then they would and it would be right, but they cant so they are destined to be coerced by state and society.
Evidently maori can muster the might, through manipultion of emotions, politicians, etc, to regain some of their entitlements and land as they are managing to do so through the treaty process, and that is how it should be. I mearly argue that they do not have any inate right or entitlement to that land unless that can muster the force at that point in time to hold and protect that land.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Frog,
my, rather large, comment appears to be in moderation; though i dont think i used any naughty words, so could you please let it pass?
Whoa, I agree with BB on a matter, atleast in so far as the apartheid laws part. The rest is just the standard chaff.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
“I suspect they are laughing at you, rather than with you….”
Exactly - I tell the truth and they laugh, because many Pakeha don’t live in the real world and find it challenging.
What did I say that was racist, BB?
“at what stage do you stop making excuses for the endless line of maori failure?”
Interesting that you use the term “maori failure”, do you talk about “Pakeha failure” when Pakeha screw something up?
October 8th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Sam, Maybe they thought you meant colon-ist something to do with your intestinal tract much like Colon-pal , that fella that used to work for Dubya.
October 8th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Sam
Fancy answering the question?
Or are you one of those people who attribute high crime rates, high child abuse rates, high child mortality rates, high unemployment rates, high drug and alcohol abuse rates to colonisation?
October 8th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Sam Come on - lots of Danes and Norwgians and French, of all political persuasions, have mythologised the past - the British have only got to use words like “invasion”, “conquest” and “colonial” and they start squirming and go into denial mode. When Danes and Norwgians and French call themself a anglocolonists people look uncomfortable or giggle as if they’d said something funny or shocking.
October 8th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
“at what stage do you stop making excuses for the endless line of maori failure?”
I guess when you’ve reached the end of a decolonisation process - acceptance of historical wrongs, credible Maori institutions with real power (including legislative power), significant Maori control of resources, equality of culture and language, then it would be pretty hard to justify blaming failure on colonisation. Whether we ever get to this stage without further colonisation is anybody’s guess.
Care to answer my questions now?
October 8th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Sam
Thanks, of course what you are advocating is apartheid, funny thing about that is I remember marching (probably with your parents) against that type of thing back in the 80’s.
October 8th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
“Damn straight. I’m sick and tired of seeing Pakeha landowners sitting on land we all know is stolen, yet the police do nothing. Not to mention the apathetic majority who demand education and government information in English because they are too bloody lazy to learn Te Reo. Likewise, the immigrants who left their own countries because conditions there were shocking, then demanded a judicial system based on their own culture should have been told to fit in or ship out on the leaky boats they came in on.”
And the above post answers your question.
October 8th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
- “I guess we’ll find out later today but, if high income earners are going to get less, and everyone still averages $50, that means low income workers are going to get more. That sounds Green or something?”
No, it sounds Socialist.
Sam B.
- “credible Maori institutions with real power (including legislative power), significant Maori control of resources, equality of culture and language”"
S’funny. When I was a lad, students used to demonstrate against racism and apartheid. Now you’re all in favour of it.
Maybe you should thrash it out once and for all and let us know what you decide?
October 9th, 2008 at 9:15 am
“of course what you are advocating is apartheid,”
Rubbish. Why is it ‘apartheid’ to advocate that some institutions be based on Maori cultural values rather than Pakeha ones, or that language and culture be treated equally?
I’m glad you folks protested about apartheid, but it’s a shame you didn’t develop some understanding of it.
Kevyn - not sure that I get what you are trying to say - the Norman take over of Britain is commonly referred to as the “Norman conquest” isn’t it? There seems to be no squirming or denial of the facts of history there.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Sam
” to advocate that some institutions be based on Maori cultural values rather than Pakeha ones”
Are you seriously suggesting that there are none?
“or that language and culture be treated equally?”
They already are treated equally.
What you advocate Sam is apartheid, you advocate special rights and privileges for one race of people, you also advocate separate development which is what Apartheid was all about in the first place.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:12 am
big bro - you’ve made me laugh! Good man!
Language and culture are treated equally - hardy ha ha!
Are you ok then, with the equal use of te reo maori and te reo pakeha on this blog? Quite a turnaround from your previously expressed opinions e hoa!
October 9th, 2008 at 11:22 am
I can only assume, BB, that you went to different schools than me, read different newspapers than me, are in contact with different government departments than me, and quite possibly live on a different planet to me.
And I never advocated special privileges for one race, or seperate development.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:57 am
I think a different planet, a mean and nasty one